Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Sinbad on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:31 pm

First off, let me just say that this is an idea for when everyone is less busy and whatnot, but if it does get implemented - now is probably a good time to bear it in mind especially for coding etc.

With that said, I'll get to my suggestion:

I for one, am still not stoked on the limitations of Might and Magic classes and races.
My last suggestion and the compromise we came to definitely helped a little in building on the replayability of the game, but not quite to the level I desired.

The problem I keep coming back to is that If I wanted a Human Dreadlord character, who specialises in Plate Armour, Sword, Dark Magic, Fire Magic and Spirit Magic, I'd either have to convince everyone here that this character would be a good addition to our already large set of classes, or learn how to hack the game (once it comes out) and alter the code so that one of the existing classes would permenantly be changed to Dreadlord.
As a gamer who doesn't like to cheat and likes nicely balanced games, I'd be much less inclined to do the latter as I'd be worried about overpowering the class and then getting bored because the game is too easy.

And as for the former, I really can't be bothered... However I will miss the lack of this class in my MMT game.

So my suggestion is that we create a Class/Race Creation Utility as a seperate program that comes along with the MMT bundle.
The utility would allow you to create classes and mix and match Skills into them in a limited way so that they cannot be overpowered.
It would also allow you to create your own races that are proficient in certain skills as per my last suggestion.

As for promo quests for user created classes, we could make it that each user created class has to fit on top of one of the first promo quest classes and then be either good or evil and then build into MMT an optional promo quest for each possibility of good or evil on top of those first promo quest classes.
I'm sure you're all very confused by now, so let me give an example:

Say I created my Dreadlord class in the Class/Race Creation Utility and made it as an alternate promotion from the Warrior class (so alternate to promoting into a Knight or Ranger) And chose the tick box for the class to be an Evil promotional type.
Once I start playing and levelling up my warrior etc. and feel its time to promote it to Dreadlord I would simply go to the [evil explorer based class promoter person] and accept their quest yada yada etc. etc.
Then I can finally play my Dreadlord and level up in the specific skills of my choosing Smile

So in order for this suggestion to work, we would simply have to put in 4 new optional promo quest givers (one for good explorer based classes, one for evil, one for good student based classes and another for evil)
And create a utility program that allows for the balanced, controlled creation of Classes and Races.

Anyway, just thought I'd see what you guys think.
Obviously this is something to throw on the backburner and forget about until we are all less franticly busy trying to get the demo out, if not till the game is finished.. But I just thought I should let you guys mull it over in case it would be a hard thing to change codes for if we get too far into production without making room for this idea in the code etc.

Cheers,


- Sinbad

Sinbad
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 75
Join date : 2011-08-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Akkarin on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:58 pm

Well, personally I'd rather stick to the original races/classes and we should focus on getting those balanced correctly first.

But if some fans want to create their own races/classes, why not?

From a developer's perspective, that wouldn't be that hard to implement.

But your right, that idea would have to wait till larger parts of the game are finished. Other than that, I don't see a problem.

Akkarin

Akkarin
Team Recruit
Team Recruit

Posts : 24
Join date : 2011-08-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  asomath on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:33 pm

In regards to the class itself, I was also dissapointed when I did not see an explorer -> crusader(Paladin) -> Templar(Hero)/Dreadlord(Villain) promotion line or somthing of the sort. To me, a heavy-armored magic user has always been a part of the MM Series, and to some players, has been integrated nicely into play styles.

As to the creation idea, there would be a tremendous amount of time needed to balance, as well as test, the system. At this point, my vote would go into only having set races/classes.

~Asomath
avatar
asomath
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 92
Join date : 2011-08-17
Location : U.S.A.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Sinbad on Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:13 am

Well in that case, why don't we just have more class options?

Sinbad
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 75
Join date : 2011-08-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  asomath on Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:11 am

Wellllllll, we need to keep the amount of Explorer and Scholar based classes equal, so we would have to brainstorm a scholar based casting class that would balance out the explorer based armor/spell hybrid class.

~Asomath
avatar
asomath
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 92
Join date : 2011-08-17
Location : U.S.A.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Sinbad on Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:49 am

The way I see it we can probably add an extra class in amongst each of the final ones for a total of 6 new classes.
This would actually make more sense because it wouyld mean there are 3 promotion choices each time.

Here's an example of a class tree that allows for a few more interesting classes:


Sinbad
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 75
Join date : 2011-08-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Akkarin on Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:09 am

From what I understand, you want to add a warrior/mage crossover class with plate armour, sword, fire magic etc.
But I don't think that could be integrated easily in that class tree you've drawn.

A character that wants to become dreadlord would start as apprentice and later be promoted to mage. Though, I don't think, that either apprentice or mage would be able to wear plate armour or equip a sword.
So you would probably have to play your mage using leather armour and dagger through half the game and after the promotion to dreadlord, you would have to spend skill points to sword and plate skill and get expert/master status for them, although you already have expert/master status for leather and dagger skill.


Akkarin
Team Recruit
Team Recruit

Posts : 24
Join date : 2011-08-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Sinbad on Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:27 am

That's a good point actually. The Dreadlord class would be much better suited to a warrior promotion position.
Here's a revised version:


Sinbad
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 75
Join date : 2011-08-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Akkarin on Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:18 am

I've been thinking about that dreadlord class and I think balancing classes properly could be an issue.

The dreadlord you propose has the following specializations:
* plate armour (best armour)
* sword (one of the best weapons, especially compared to dagger/staff of usual mage classes)
* fire + dark magic (the two most powerful offensive magic schools)
* spirit magic (supporting spells school)

To me this seems to be a heavy armoured damage dealer that combines all advanteges of both knight and wizard class, but without the disadvantages.

I think we need to compensate those advantages in some way.

For example restrict the level of expertise of the forementioned skills:
* plate armour (expert), sword (expert); that way, he could equip plate armour and sword, but not become as powerful as the warrior classes
* fire + dark magic (expert or master); I think only real mage classes should be able to become master/grandmaster of spell skills
* drop spirit magic; I don't think that a damage dealer needs support spells

Akkarin

Akkarin
Team Recruit
Team Recruit

Posts : 24
Join date : 2011-08-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  asomath on Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:12 pm

I would agree that the Dreadlord should drop the schools of spirit/body/mind and reserve those for the paladin class.

However, I'm a little concerned about the set up for two reasons:

1. The Paladin and Dreadlord classes are on the warrior pathway, which is supposed to be the pathway for the classes that use NO magic and goes for all weapon skills. To turn around and then have them be magic hybrids seems a little silly.

2. Although no matter how we do it, 6 classes would be added in the process, I would prefer not to make all 6 of those master tier classes. This would mean that we would have to figure out a way to rebalance the master classes so each one is unique. I think that 2 intermediate classes with 2 master class promotions for each would be easier to play with and easier to balance.

Perhaps the Caster hybrid path should be those who hybrid between weapons and casting vs the Armor and Casting of the paladin and Dreadlord?

~Asomath
avatar
asomath
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 92
Join date : 2011-08-17
Location : U.S.A.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  schveider on Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:17 pm

I think the game balancing would be great problem.I like this idea however balancing complexity grows exponentially in this case with each level of promotion.I suggest to come to an agreement about this feature (not necessarily now) and put it into the set of "Things to be implemented".

schveider
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 104
Join date : 2011-08-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

http://mmtribute.forumotion.com/post?t=12&mode=reply

Post  Sinbad on Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:12 pm

I agree that Dreadlord shouldn't have spirit magic ( dunno why i suggested that.. ) and should only be able to expert dark magic, while maybe being able to master fire magic.
No other magic can be learned ( part from the spellcasting skill ).
As for weapon proficiency, i agree that he shouldn't be able to grandmaster sword as this would be getting too powerful in too many areas, but merely mastering sword and plate wouldn't be too powerful.

As for Paladin, I think he should be able to expert light, spirit and body and other than that be pretty much the same Paladin from previous mm games

1. The Paladin and Dreadlord classes are on the warrior pathway, which is supposed to be the pathway for the classes that use NO magic and goes for all weapon skills. To turn around and then have them be magic hybrids seems a little silly.

I think the Knight should be fine to be the only non-magic final promotion. Obviously he would be the class to GM plate, sword shield, spear and repair item etc. as per previous mm games.
It would be weird to have more than one warrior promotion that neglects magic in exchange for weapon skills, and even in the current MM class tree the Ranger Warrior promotion does learns magic..

Sinbad
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 75
Join date : 2011-08-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  asomath on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:59 pm

Schveiders right, we should decide on this feature now but actually work on it later. After all, we do have deadlines to meet.

Ill put my vote in for yes, as, despite what I said about balancing, I do like the larger amount of promotions. However, keep in mind that with new classes, new skills should be implemented to avoid too much of an excessive overlap between the 6 new classes. Perhaps new weapon skills, both range (Throwing Knifes/Poisoned Spikes?) and melee (Tridents?). Just food for thought. No real brainstorming now.

~Asomath

avatar
asomath
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 92
Join date : 2011-08-17
Location : U.S.A.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Sinbad on Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:24 am

I agree with more skills.
Throwing seems an obvious choice as this would allow Assassin to GM in a ranged skill whilst being different from Ranger.
Throwing could include some interesting weapons such as boomerang, throwing stars, throwing axes, darts, rocks and obviously throwing knives.

As for throwing spears being a different skill, that could be one way to do it..
Personally I think its time to divide the spear skill into "Spear" and "Polearm"

Polearm can be what was once called spear skill and include things like halberd, Lance, Pike, Naganaga etc.
Basically being a non-throwing spear skill.

Spear will be the new skill which includes throwable spears like Javalins, Tridents, Tribal spears etc.

The old Bow skill could become two skills - "Bow" and "Crossbow" (pretty obvious)
And if we still have room for more weapons, perhaps the mace skill could be split into "Cudgel" and "Flail"

Now in order to add some functionality, I think its high time MM had "weapon range" implemented.
By this I mean that certain weapons should be able to hit from further away such as longbows and the like having incredible distance, down to unarmed which you need to be right next to the enemy to use and the broad spectrum of everything in between.


Another way to do the whole throwing weapon thing would be to just add a "Throwing" Skill and give every melee weapon a throw distance and throw damage attribute which then gets multiplied by whatever weapon skill that particular weapon is associated with.
i.e if you had a dagger equipped and the enemy was far away you can use the throwing skill to hurl it at them and it would do damage equal to your throwing skill level + ("dagger skill level" x "weapon throw damage")

But then we run into the problem of how do we make thrown weapon retreivable? or do you just have telekenetic weapons that re-appear in your hand like mm9... maybe? seems like a cop-out though.

Food for thought,


- Sinbad

Sinbad
Team Member
Team Member

Posts : 75
Join date : 2011-08-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  asomath on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:14 am

I like the ideas. I think we should keep range weapons seperate and melee weapons seperate. After all, going into battle with your newly found artifact sword and then accidentely throwing it could be a sad thing Razz Keeping the range to melee mechanic switch automatic seems like a better idea.

I'd speak more on the range idea and how I think we should handle it but I'd like to postpone this conversation for another time, when we're actually dealing with the mechanics, if thats alright.

~Asomath
avatar
asomath
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 92
Join date : 2011-08-17
Location : U.S.A.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Akkarin on Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:47 pm

schveider wrote:I think the game balancing would be great problem.I like this idea however balancing complexity grows exponentially in this case with each level of promotion.I suggest to come to an agreement about this feature (not necessarily now) and put it into the set of "Things to be implemented".

Regarding Serenity demo, I suggest that we implement the class system, that is documented on the MMT wiki, as it seems elaborate.
If we come up with a balanced version of a modified class system we could probably integrate that later on.

That range idea is interesting and that throwing skill might be interesting, too.
But as you said, retrieving the weapon would be an issue. If it would just reappear, it would just supersede the bow skill. But if you have to retrieve it after each shot. Then you would only have one shot and I don't think that would help much in battle.

But yeah, we could postpone this conversation.

Akkarin

Akkarin
Team Recruit
Team Recruit

Posts : 24
Join date : 2011-08-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Idea For The Backburner: Class/Race Creation Utility

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum